Ah, fight scenes. Too little, too much, just right? Few get it just right. Violence for violence’s sake is distracting and unnecessary. Another thought-provoking post.
I could not agree more that most fight sequences (literary or cinimatic) are about as interesting as step-by-step instructions for making mashed potatoes. One exception to that rule is the ever funny Inspector Clouseau and Cato battles in the Pink Panther films.
So...if you don't mind reading one more fight scene, what's your thoughts about this. In this one, the ex-President White (who is quite a criminal and Juno Wolfe, our CIA spy, was told to bring him back from the island dead or alive) is escaping in his helicopter.
------------
She ran to the helicopter and tried to pull him out of the cockpit. The helicopter started rising and she dropped her rifle to free her hands, jumped onto the landing skid of the helicopter, and pulled herself into the cockpit, grabbing White, trying to push him out of the cab. She gave him a punch, but he was better positioned and fought back, batting her. She was half in and out, but hung onto the metal side bar, then kicked him dislodging him from his seat, and pulled herself back in. He quickly sat back up. She tried to pull him out again, but he had more leverage. He was a massive man. He continued to raise the helicopter and she grabbed him around the neck. She took the back of his hair and thrust his head into the windshield.
Suddenly, he had a gun in his hand and aimed it at her chest, but as he fired, the helicopter lurched and the bullet hit her in the thigh. She looked at him in astonishment. Half because she didn't believe he had the guts to shoot a gun, and half because she had heard he was too repulsed with seeing blood to shoot anyone.
He aimed again, but she karate-chopped his hand and the gun fell to the floorboards. She grabbed the control stick and nose-dived the helicopter to get it back to the ground. He used the foot-pedals, sent the helicopter steeply on its side, and smashed her hand on the side bar. She fell out of the helicopter and hit the ground, clutching her leg.
She sat up, took out her Glock, and raised it towards the helicopter. She believed to her core that she needed to revenge James, revenge America, and if she couldn’t take White to justice, she would have to shoot him. She fired, but with the helicopter gyrating, she missed. White rotated the helicopter towards her and pointed the machine guns.
Here's a shorter fight scene from the same book, Finding Jessie Monroe. I'd love you thoughts on it, also:
---------------------------------
Downstairs, Juno Wolfe wasn’t having any success locating Derrick. She broke into several storage-type rooms, only to find them empty.
But then… she kicked in a door and surprised Derrick’s two handlers. They were both sitting with their backs to the door, watching a small computer laptop playing some movie. Facing the door sat Derrick on a chair, bound with ropes and a gag. His eyes grew large as saw the woman he recognized as the Juno Wolfe he’d seen on numerous talk shows, talking about the Russian missile site, about the Freedom War, enter the room. But it was the sound of the door crashing open that made his handlers pay notice.
They both jumped up from their seats but weren’t quick enough for Juno Wolfe. A swift kick here, whirl, back again, backwards, kick. Derrick thought she looked like a whirling dervish. Bam, bam bam. Hit jab. And then quickly, suddenly, it was over. Both men were motionless on the floor.
Juno knelt down by Derrick, removed his gag, and untied him. He looked at her and stared quizzically. Her face was familiar for another reason. Strangely familiar.
“Jada?” he asked.
“Long answer,” she said. “Juno now.”
He was too confused and grateful to have been rescued to ask any other questions.
They stood up and looked at the two men who had held Derrick captive. One was curled up, knocked out cold. But the other one was laying on his back and his eyes were staring, lifeless.
Juno shook her head in remorse. Her shoulders slumped.
“Combat techniques can be lethal,” she said, evenly, sadly.
Derrick could tell she hadn’t wanted to kill anyone and saw a new side of Jada… Juno… whoever this beautiful but lethal woman was. Human, humble.
Well, that's short all right... it makes sense because it's from Derrick's perspective. All he sees is a blur. What I'm somewhat concerned about is the change of POV in that small fragment. You start with Juno and switch to Derrick in the middle of paragraph 2.
Good catch. That book, which was the third in my spy novel series, was the first time I'd learned about POV. I thought I'd caught most of the head-hopping but obviously not. My background was software engineering and management - I only started writing after I retired and am learning more and more with each book. There's none of that (I hope) in the next two and I'm now working on book 6 in the series.
This scene goes on for 8 pages but it's interspersed with reactions. The background is Juno Wolfe is a CIA spy. Her real name is Jessie Monroe and her twin brother, James Monroe, is running for President to beat the current President White. She had infiltrated the BLM where the CIA thought Derrick, a BLM organizer, was a Russian agent. Actually, his identical twin brother Daryl was paid by Pres. White to assassinate James Monroe. So here we go. I'd love your feedback. (The book is "Finding Jessie Monroe", the third in my spy novel series. But it won't let me post it all (says write a shorter comment but no guidelines how short it has to be). I linked it as PDF
It's very complicated. I found myself skipping. There are also lots of names in there (some sounding similar even), many people involved, like five people moving at the same time, and head hopping (changes of POV all through). I think it would help to write the scene from the perspective of one character, experiencing the kind of confusion a situation like that creates. It would make it more relatable for the reader, I think.
Interesting feedback. Thanks! If you don't mind, I'd love to add another scene...this one's from the 4th book in the series and...I think...avoids the head hopping. I find the POV topic very interesting. Some of my readers actually like it - says it gives them more insight into the action. I've never noticed "head hopping". But as a writer, I've gotten enough feedback from people who say it confuses them or drops their interest that nowadays I avoid it. I think it depends on if you're a multitasker or not. Or maybe it more relates to if you're more of a movie watcher than a reader. Movies bounce more and you get all POVs thrown at you, imho. But it is a subject that interests me.
Totally agree, Martine - even in movies, the fight scenes often go on far longer (and more and more implausibly) than they should. But in a book? No.
Sort of related: I've noticed something in recent fiction where someone tries to describe an action with a long series of physical movements, as though they are trying to avoid just spitting it out and telling us what's happening, and in the end, you're more baffled than before. Sometimes, telling rather than showing is good.
The telling and showing makes me think of something else. That in being so focused on the physical moves, the writer forgets to be in the head of their character, like suddenly the protagonist has no feeling or thought.
My favorite action scenes were written by Robert Olen Butler. He’s got a series of WWII era detective novels with a Marlowe as the narrator. Ode to Chandler no doubt.
His fights use conjunctions to the extreme: and, and, and. It becomes one spanning, hyper complex, breathless sentence that leaves you gasping for air by fight’s end.
Years ago I read an interview with a director who complained he couldn't get a movie green-lit unless the last 20-30 minutes had explosions/fire and some kind of personal combat.
So true. Your phrase "ponderous and clunky" describes it perfectly. I stop reading when it becomes too much trouble to keep track of and then try to get back into the narrative. Or close the book and go to sleep.
Also, I'm thrilled that you enjoyed my story and honored that you chose to feature it here. Thank you Martine. This is very generous of you.
It depends on where in the course of the book the violence occurs. My first mystery editor at St. Martin's Press advised me to be careful not to make a fight or struggle too short because at that point people would be reading faster and might miss something.
I think the fights, violence, whatever one calls it, in Already Dead are brilliantly handled with just enough detail to know what's happening without it being too much. Plus the book is amazing. I've taught it several times and read it more times than that.
I've just seen the Borne Trilogy again and the fights are terrifically choreographed, especially in #3 but I think thanks to CGI, things are edited faster and faster now and they bore me. It feels like the director and cinematographer are showing off.
That super-fast editing gets especially annoying in car chases. It gets to the point that I don't know who's who and does what sometimes... that's when I turn the TV off, lol!
They do it because they can and they think it's exciting. It's not. I recently noticed how different the opening chase in Transporter (2002) was form car chases now. Ditto the first Bourne movie car chase. You get to enjoy the twists and turns without feeling twisted yourself. :-)
A grandfather clock—hmmm…. I might have to steal that idea.
Love Declan’s fight scene! The lead-in is important. Brawls (like battles) tend to be imressions (smacks, cracks, dizziness, when did I wind up on the ground?) I like the choreography in certain circumstances: duel-like fights between people who know what they’re doing, for example. But even these quickly turn into instinct and unconscious reactions. Afterwards, it’s like—when did that table shatter? and how did that hole get in the wall?
Agreed. Action happens but if it takes you out of the story to accomplish the description then it should be tightened. You should be feeling the action not getting a blow-by-blow, and end it when it's no longer serving the story's purpose.
My example--comics, but Frank Miller's Dark Knight. Retired Bats is squaring against the Mutant leader and gets his ass kicked. There's a few story boards of the fight but it doesn't belabor the point. Bats is older, slower and this 20 something beats the hell out of him. The point is, age has caught up to Bats and the fight demonstrates. It's a powerful scene and less is more. Always ;) Well...almost always ;)
Same for me in action movies these days--superhero or otherwise. I don't need a ten minute fight scene. Give me the crux, the endgame and the fallout but not every punch and blood spatter :)
My best buddy and I constantly look at sentences, paragraphs and scenes with an eye to keep the story moving forward. Every word should push to the next. If something slows the narrative down it needs to be changed or deleted.
Great stuff here Martine. Most real fights between people who aren't kickboxers by trade last about two minutes max anyway. Most of the time; somebody goes down and stays down, somebody can't breath, can't raise their arms anymore or just backs away, No Mas. Speaking of the terrific Bourne fight scenes in the other spy's apartment and the equally good ones in Bourne's townhome suite as well as the chase/fight scene that ended in the shower stall were down and dirty real. You use whatever you can find and it ain't pretty. They were probably the best I've ever seen on the screen. But as you said, that's where a movie has its obvious advantage over words on a page. Good topic. - Jim
Ah, fight scenes. Too little, too much, just right? Few get it just right. Violence for violence’s sake is distracting and unnecessary. Another thought-provoking post.
Thanks for reading, Rebecca.
I could not agree more that most fight sequences (literary or cinimatic) are about as interesting as step-by-step instructions for making mashed potatoes. One exception to that rule is the ever funny Inspector Clouseau and Cato battles in the Pink Panther films.
So...if you don't mind reading one more fight scene, what's your thoughts about this. In this one, the ex-President White (who is quite a criminal and Juno Wolfe, our CIA spy, was told to bring him back from the island dead or alive) is escaping in his helicopter.
------------
She ran to the helicopter and tried to pull him out of the cockpit. The helicopter started rising and she dropped her rifle to free her hands, jumped onto the landing skid of the helicopter, and pulled herself into the cockpit, grabbing White, trying to push him out of the cab. She gave him a punch, but he was better positioned and fought back, batting her. She was half in and out, but hung onto the metal side bar, then kicked him dislodging him from his seat, and pulled herself back in. He quickly sat back up. She tried to pull him out again, but he had more leverage. He was a massive man. He continued to raise the helicopter and she grabbed him around the neck. She took the back of his hair and thrust his head into the windshield.
Suddenly, he had a gun in his hand and aimed it at her chest, but as he fired, the helicopter lurched and the bullet hit her in the thigh. She looked at him in astonishment. Half because she didn't believe he had the guts to shoot a gun, and half because she had heard he was too repulsed with seeing blood to shoot anyone.
He aimed again, but she karate-chopped his hand and the gun fell to the floorboards. She grabbed the control stick and nose-dived the helicopter to get it back to the ground. He used the foot-pedals, sent the helicopter steeply on its side, and smashed her hand on the side bar. She fell out of the helicopter and hit the ground, clutching her leg.
She sat up, took out her Glock, and raised it towards the helicopter. She believed to her core that she needed to revenge James, revenge America, and if she couldn’t take White to justice, she would have to shoot him. She fired, but with the helicopter gyrating, she missed. White rotated the helicopter towards her and pointed the machine guns.
Hi Jan, I'll reply via email if you don't mind... easier!
Sure - janmccleery@yahoo.com
Here's a shorter fight scene from the same book, Finding Jessie Monroe. I'd love you thoughts on it, also:
---------------------------------
Downstairs, Juno Wolfe wasn’t having any success locating Derrick. She broke into several storage-type rooms, only to find them empty.
But then… she kicked in a door and surprised Derrick’s two handlers. They were both sitting with their backs to the door, watching a small computer laptop playing some movie. Facing the door sat Derrick on a chair, bound with ropes and a gag. His eyes grew large as saw the woman he recognized as the Juno Wolfe he’d seen on numerous talk shows, talking about the Russian missile site, about the Freedom War, enter the room. But it was the sound of the door crashing open that made his handlers pay notice.
They both jumped up from their seats but weren’t quick enough for Juno Wolfe. A swift kick here, whirl, back again, backwards, kick. Derrick thought she looked like a whirling dervish. Bam, bam bam. Hit jab. And then quickly, suddenly, it was over. Both men were motionless on the floor.
Juno knelt down by Derrick, removed his gag, and untied him. He looked at her and stared quizzically. Her face was familiar for another reason. Strangely familiar.
“Jada?” he asked.
“Long answer,” she said. “Juno now.”
He was too confused and grateful to have been rescued to ask any other questions.
They stood up and looked at the two men who had held Derrick captive. One was curled up, knocked out cold. But the other one was laying on his back and his eyes were staring, lifeless.
Juno shook her head in remorse. Her shoulders slumped.
“Combat techniques can be lethal,” she said, evenly, sadly.
Derrick could tell she hadn’t wanted to kill anyone and saw a new side of Jada… Juno… whoever this beautiful but lethal woman was. Human, humble.
Well, that's short all right... it makes sense because it's from Derrick's perspective. All he sees is a blur. What I'm somewhat concerned about is the change of POV in that small fragment. You start with Juno and switch to Derrick in the middle of paragraph 2.
Good catch. That book, which was the third in my spy novel series, was the first time I'd learned about POV. I thought I'd caught most of the head-hopping but obviously not. My background was software engineering and management - I only started writing after I retired and am learning more and more with each book. There's none of that (I hope) in the next two and I'm now working on book 6 in the series.
This scene goes on for 8 pages but it's interspersed with reactions. The background is Juno Wolfe is a CIA spy. Her real name is Jessie Monroe and her twin brother, James Monroe, is running for President to beat the current President White. She had infiltrated the BLM where the CIA thought Derrick, a BLM organizer, was a Russian agent. Actually, his identical twin brother Daryl was paid by Pres. White to assassinate James Monroe. So here we go. I'd love your feedback. (The book is "Finding Jessie Monroe", the third in my spy novel series. But it won't let me post it all (says write a shorter comment but no guidelines how short it has to be). I linked it as PDF
--------------------------
https://duckpondsoftware.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/fightscene.pdf
It's very complicated. I found myself skipping. There are also lots of names in there (some sounding similar even), many people involved, like five people moving at the same time, and head hopping (changes of POV all through). I think it would help to write the scene from the perspective of one character, experiencing the kind of confusion a situation like that creates. It would make it more relatable for the reader, I think.
Interesting feedback. Thanks! If you don't mind, I'd love to add another scene...this one's from the 4th book in the series and...I think...avoids the head hopping. I find the POV topic very interesting. Some of my readers actually like it - says it gives them more insight into the action. I've never noticed "head hopping". But as a writer, I've gotten enough feedback from people who say it confuses them or drops their interest that nowadays I avoid it. I think it depends on if you're a multitasker or not. Or maybe it more relates to if you're more of a movie watcher than a reader. Movies bounce more and you get all POVs thrown at you, imho. But it is a subject that interests me.
Totally agree, Martine - even in movies, the fight scenes often go on far longer (and more and more implausibly) than they should. But in a book? No.
Sort of related: I've noticed something in recent fiction where someone tries to describe an action with a long series of physical movements, as though they are trying to avoid just spitting it out and telling us what's happening, and in the end, you're more baffled than before. Sometimes, telling rather than showing is good.
The telling and showing makes me think of something else. That in being so focused on the physical moves, the writer forgets to be in the head of their character, like suddenly the protagonist has no feeling or thought.
My favorite action scenes were written by Robert Olen Butler. He’s got a series of WWII era detective novels with a Marlowe as the narrator. Ode to Chandler no doubt.
His fights use conjunctions to the extreme: and, and, and. It becomes one spanning, hyper complex, breathless sentence that leaves you gasping for air by fight’s end.
Ah thanks, I need to check that out. It looks like something I'd like.
Short enough to be tolerable (I have a rather vivid imagination and can picture the scene - ugh!).
I agree with you. Your fight wasn’t too long, but still, I see your questioning it. Probably could say the same thing for love scenes.
I actually thought about doing one for love scenes….
Could be funny, do it.
It's a sticky topic... but yes, I'll need to build a good head of steam, lol.
What this makes me think of us how many movies now seem to end with two characters, human or otherwise, duking it out. For-ever.
It's a trend that won't stop since so many of the 50 top-grossing movies in American history are from the Marvel franchise or something analogous.
Yes, it's really sad...
Years ago I read an interview with a director who complained he couldn't get a movie green-lit unless the last 20-30 minutes had explosions/fire and some kind of personal combat.
It worked for me :-)
Thanks for reading!
So true. Your phrase "ponderous and clunky" describes it perfectly. I stop reading when it becomes too much trouble to keep track of and then try to get back into the narrative. Or close the book and go to sleep.
Also, I'm thrilled that you enjoyed my story and honored that you chose to feature it here. Thank you Martine. This is very generous of you.
I hope that people will read your story, it's so good!
It depends on where in the course of the book the violence occurs. My first mystery editor at St. Martin's Press advised me to be careful not to make a fight or struggle too short because at that point people would be reading faster and might miss something.
I think the fights, violence, whatever one calls it, in Already Dead are brilliantly handled with just enough detail to know what's happening without it being too much. Plus the book is amazing. I've taught it several times and read it more times than that.
I've just seen the Borne Trilogy again and the fights are terrifically choreographed, especially in #3 but I think thanks to CGI, things are edited faster and faster now and they bore me. It feels like the director and cinematographer are showing off.
That super-fast editing gets especially annoying in car chases. It gets to the point that I don't know who's who and does what sometimes... that's when I turn the TV off, lol!
They do it because they can and they think it's exciting. It's not. I recently noticed how different the opening chase in Transporter (2002) was form car chases now. Ditto the first Bourne movie car chase. You get to enjoy the twists and turns without feeling twisted yourself. :-)
A grandfather clock—hmmm…. I might have to steal that idea.
Love Declan’s fight scene! The lead-in is important. Brawls (like battles) tend to be imressions (smacks, cracks, dizziness, when did I wind up on the ground?) I like the choreography in certain circumstances: duel-like fights between people who know what they’re doing, for example. But even these quickly turn into instinct and unconscious reactions. Afterwards, it’s like—when did that table shatter? and how did that hole get in the wall?
Ah, glad you like it! You can have the grandfather clock (I hate these things - smash it to pieces!)
Will do!
Agreed. Action happens but if it takes you out of the story to accomplish the description then it should be tightened. You should be feeling the action not getting a blow-by-blow, and end it when it's no longer serving the story's purpose.
My example--comics, but Frank Miller's Dark Knight. Retired Bats is squaring against the Mutant leader and gets his ass kicked. There's a few story boards of the fight but it doesn't belabor the point. Bats is older, slower and this 20 something beats the hell out of him. The point is, age has caught up to Bats and the fight demonstrates. It's a powerful scene and less is more. Always ;) Well...almost always ;)
Same for me in action movies these days--superhero or otherwise. I don't need a ten minute fight scene. Give me the crux, the endgame and the fallout but not every punch and blood spatter :)
My best buddy and I constantly look at sentences, paragraphs and scenes with an eye to keep the story moving forward. Every word should push to the next. If something slows the narrative down it needs to be changed or deleted.
I like fight scenes in graphic novels: the changing angles, frame-in-frame, close-ups... It's exciting.
Me too...maybe a bad example for prose because you get the visual, but the point is that the action has to move the story along and not bog it down.
Great stuff here Martine. Most real fights between people who aren't kickboxers by trade last about two minutes max anyway. Most of the time; somebody goes down and stays down, somebody can't breath, can't raise their arms anymore or just backs away, No Mas. Speaking of the terrific Bourne fight scenes in the other spy's apartment and the equally good ones in Bourne's townhome suite as well as the chase/fight scene that ended in the shower stall were down and dirty real. You use whatever you can find and it ain't pretty. They were probably the best I've ever seen on the screen. But as you said, that's where a movie has its obvious advantage over words on a page. Good topic. - Jim
Thanks Jim. I knew I was right to inject film in this one... we're all familiar with that stuff!